Re: Dan On Swords
Peter Boylan (pboylan@POP.BIWAKO.OR.JP)
Dan was busy, so I just put all his stuff together in one message for
easy reading.
> From: Dan
>
> The other day I was talking with a buddy of mine in the military. He is
> a high ranking officer I believe he is Menkyo in artillery and and a rokudan
> in missile tactics. Anyway he was telling about an assault on a navy base
> that failed.
> It appears that there was an initial assault by trained seals, they were
> to take out several ships with magnetic mines. This sandan ranked seal was
> really ticked. The problem was they had trained in a kata mining form
> only, when they went to attach the mines to the ships guess what ? the ships
> (your not gonna believe this ) were actually "moving" they weren't sitting
> there waiting for the mining technique to be applied. so the seals couldn't
> apply correct mining technique. and the ships kept going
> Next thing you know the marines have to storm the beach. almost all of
> them were trained in the (Iai-m16-do and the Iai-45-do) weapon drawing
> techniques. once again a problem developed. It appears that once their
> weapons were actually drawn, several shot themselves with them , one cut his
> hand and everyone else didn't know how to use them...it seems that three of
> them (I think they were yondans and go dans) were really pissed at their
> instructors when they realized they didn't have a clue as to how to use the
> damn equipment once it was drawn. The godan was so pissed (having trained
> for 20 years in Iai 45-do he drew his 45 in a perfect draw, to shoot his
> instructor for lying to him. It ended OK though .naturally he missed and
> shot his own foot.
> Fortunately the other side had been trained in a philosophy based
> warrior art. When the marines stormed the beach and started shooting at
> them.they started twirling around and around and tripped on their hakamas
> and mostly all of them fell down in the sand.
> At this point several of the Shihan ranked generals were disgusted they
> all sat down with both sides present and started yelling at the lower ranks
> for promoting iai people and mining theory people without the proper
> training. At this point a senior senior hanshi shihan guy that everyone
> loved cause of his white hair and beard just stood up and glared at
> everyone. He told them that the warrior arts were about loving each other
> and learning high moral standards by drawing the gun. He admonished them
> that they hadn't grown spiritually enough yet that they needed to draw the
> gun a few more times.
> WHEW!!! at that point they all went back to shugyo and then drink beer.
> OH! my friend the high ranked guy ...he quit the military altogether
> He is now the SOKE of his own military and is preparing for war
>
> Clear?
Dan, this was actually very clear. Next time might I suggest trying a
method a that invites and encourages discussion rather one that feels
like a derisive attack. After reading this,and the rest of your stuff,
I was tempted to killfile you, but Cady recommends you, so you get some
leeway from me.
In response to the insult to iaido, all the ryu-ha of which I am aware
use solo drawing kata as means to train the proper handling of a sword.
These are combined with kumitachi sets which teach maai, timing, and
actually dealing with an opponent. Most of the existing schools also
teach a wide variety of weapons besides sword.
>
> Subject: Re: Swords Again?!
> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:05:37 -0400
> From: Dan
>
> you wrote
> >What was particularly fascinating about the article was the authors
> >argument, also excellently documented, that the techniques of the
> >European long sword and the Japanese tachi and Katana were essentially
> >identical. He illustrates this with a series of drawings from medieval
> >training manuals.
>
> That is a wild stretch......they do not function the same way, and they do
> not cut or stab the same way either. I forge both types and have conducted
> extensive research on my own.
Please read the article before you call it wild. IT is
Galas, S. Matthew. 1997. "Kindred Spirits: The Art Of The Sword In
Germany and Japan" THE JOURNAL OF ASIAN MARTIAL ARTS Volume 6, No.3.
It is quite well researched, and supports it's thesis very, very well.
>The Katana's are 32,000 layers with 3/4" koshi
> zori the mechanics of a curved two handed sword are completely different
> AND much more effective then the chopping motion of a broadsword.
What is important in the use of the sword is not the shape of the sword,
but the joints and muscles wielding it. They human body is extremely
limited in the techniques it can effectivel perfom with a long, thin,
basically straight (the curvature is small, does not have a practical
effect on how you can swing something, whether it's a sword, a hammer,
or a jo). Believe it or not, the proper techinque with a Japanese sword,
and a traditional Japanese sledgehammer is identical. By the way,
Japanese swords do not have 32,000 individual layers. What they have is
a mish-mash of small pieces that work together, There are no contiuous
layers within a Japanese sword (I have spent time working with katana
smiths in their forges here)
> The construction of a Katana in the handle area reflects this as well. A
> broadsword or any other type with a fixed or threaded pommel tended to set
> up a resonance in the handle and pommel , it was not unusual for the pommel
> to crack at that juncture due to stress. The Japanese wisely separated the
> Kashira (pommel) from the steel of the sword and made a shock absorbing
> handle structure (not to mention the absorbing quality of the steel)
> They do not stab the same way either
Katanas thrust quite well actually. The disadvantage to the wooden
tsuka is that you can break it right off the sword (I found out about
this problem the hard way)
>
> >you wrote
> >By the way, I'm looking forward to Bartman's description of what happens
> >to armor when you hit it with a really big sword. The idea that a
> >rapier was effective against someone in armor with a long sword is pretty
> >ridiculous to me, but then I study a couple of 400+ year old Japanese
> >weapons systems.
>
> Many 400 year old Japanese systems are about as effective as a new one.
> The edo period warriors were in a terrible state as far as martial abilities
> went. You should realize their is Koryu buDO and then their is Koryu buJUTSU
> many of the things you learn in koryu budo do not work, the cutting motion
> and the footwork are affectations.
I see you've read you're Draeger. While his books are essential reading
for anyone in the Japanese Martial arts, his theoretical analysis of the
difference between "do" and "jutsu" doesn't work. It doesn't really
hold up on a theoretical and philosophical level if you know too much
about Chinese philosohpy, Japanese philosohpy and the uses of the terms
"do" and "jutsu". It completely falls apart when it is applied to
reality. Very few of the schools are called something-something "jutsu"
or "do" They are Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, or Shibukawa Ryu, or Shinto
Muso Ryu. They are ryu, not jutsu or do. That whole line of garbage is
basically a vey new one.
In addition some of the ryu mainained an excellent level of reality
throughout their history because they continued to be trained in by
police, guards, and the few members of the Pax-Tokugawa military who
actually did need to be able to use a weapon. And just because there
were no active wars in Japan does not mean that there was no crime (a
major problem, even with Draconian punishments) or rebellions (lots and
lots of these, since incompetent rulers tend to breed resentment.)
>
> you wrote
> One problem off the bat is that the wound from rapier
> >will kill, but it won't stop. And if you don't stop me, even though
> >I've got a fatal wound, all I have to do is drop my hands in a straight
> >line and a good sword will cleave through several inches of skull just
> >from it's own momentum.
> It has been known and shown that you were relatively safe from a shomen
> type cut if you could stab into the chest or diaphragm. This attack caused
> considerable Kuzushi
> (rearward off balancing) and the opponent could not complete the cut.
True, but I'm talking about a thrust from an 18th century gentleman's
rapier. This has no weight, it's rather more like pushing a needle
through skin. Don't get me wrong, you'd still be dead, but it would not
prevent you from finishing your cut.
>It
> still is wise to stay "off" line though. of course none of these things work
> with the typical "Aiki" sword slash cut anyway, stay away from that
> nonsense. the lever motion cut with a forward kuzushi is the way to "cut
> into" a man. Most Aikido sword is pretty tame in comparison
I couldn't agree with this paragraph more.
> Dan------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: Dan on Sword
> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:46:39 -0400
> From: Cady Goldfield
>
> Dan wrote:
>
> >>Many 400 year old Japanese systems are about as effective as a new one.
> The edo period warriors were in a terrible state as far as martial
> abilities went. You should realize their is Koryu buDO and then their is
> Koryu
> buJUTSU many of the things you learn in koryu budo do not work, the cutting
> motion
> and the footwork are affectations.<<
>
> What were some of these affectations, and how did they come about?
>
> Cady
The one that annoys me the most is all the sliding footwork in the
dojo. I practice it, but I also practice outside on real ground, where
sliding footwork just trips you up, literally.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: Dan on Sword
> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:15:50 -0400
> From: Dan
>
> effective cutting motion. Now you have the rear hand as power in Kendo. THis
> is totaly stupid in a physics based analysis. Next you had the Tap Tap.
> ref!! hey ref! didn't you see my point score............. It just doesnt
> cut.
Please don't mistake post Meiji gekken (the precursor to kendo) and
kendo for Tokugawa era swordsmanship.
> Then you had the funniest thing...all the targets are to the armored
> areas. Where in Kenjutsu they are to the armor openings.....then the Kendo
> people decided to have everyone move with both feet forward in a hobbling
> skip movement. Its so funny to talk to them about musashi or even common
> sense walking in a battlefield.
Musashi was talking about techniques taught by schools such as Kashima
Shinto Ryu, and Katori Shinto Ryu. These were, and are, specifically
battlefield styles. The techinques make sense when you consider that
the Japanese battlefield was as much about single combat as it was about
mass engagement. As for kenjutsu being only to the armor openings, what
if someone isn't wearing armor? Do ignore all those nice vulnerable
targets and continue to only attack shoulder, elbow and crotch joints.
And don't forget naginata. The sengoku jidai naginata were quite
capable of cutting through a man, and his armor.
> The locks as contained in jujutsu (as oppsed to Aikido) are based onn a
> kuzushi method not a leading tenkan so you see the Koryu sword there as
> well. THe rotation necessary for targeting and Kashira ate all afford the
> cogent and comprehensive basis for ALL locks. Thats why sword was always
> connsidered the father of jujutsu- aikido
> Iai-do is a whole other subject of affectations as well.
Iaido is simply a post 1945 umbrella term that allows a whole lot of
ryu-ha the excuse to get together and train and have really nice
parties. By itself, it really doesn't mean much of anything.
> Dan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Sword affectations in Edo period
> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:30:04 -0400
> From: Dan
>
> We emphasize off hand cutting and moving with quick reversals.
> One other difference was the cutting motion itself. What you see mostly
> (not all) these days is either a tap, or a bludgeoning cut (like a
> broadsword) or the Aiki slash. None of these is how you cut with a Katana.
> And dont bother asking the Japanese most of them dont know anymore either.
> and .....YES!! including a whole big bunch of all the 8th dans you know. A
> lot of people still kiss the proverbial Japanese ass not realizing that 99%
> of them were taught by Kendo guys and they have never cut a thing in their
> lives , its all theory to them.
And a lot of do do tameshigiri practice. You don't need a whole lot of
it to master hazushi, but it does help. As for 8th dans, with all the
different organizations out there awarding dans, someone's rank doesn't
mean much unless you are very familiar the organization that awarded it.
>TO slash away from someone in a tenkan type
> of movement is not the way.
> You want to cut into, slice into (not hit, or slice away) the opponent.
> this causes a kuzushi wherein he tries to resist and actually aids you in
> cutting himself. its really neat. When using the Katana this way to deflect
> it also causes his shoulder to rotate more, affording you more opportunity.
> Of course this again leads you back to the comprehensive body techniques of
> AikiJujutsu that are in the sword.
> Well, sorry for the bandwidth I'm home with a stomach bug and
> rambling......gees
That's ok. You really belong over on the Iaido-L ( I know you despise
iaido, but it's really a hang-out for English speaking koryu folks.
Karl Friday's comments on the effectiveness of uke nagashi are
interesting as well. I never liked the technique to much, and after
hearing his comments, my opinion has only been reinforce.
Peter "the Budo Bum" Boylan
PS, Do I get the coveted "Bartman Award" for longest post ever? Huh?
Huh? Do I? Huh?
--
Peter Boylan
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